I just checked out the online version of LadyStar. I didn't get any javascript errors, but then my browser is set to not display any script error messages.

But the game was dead silent. No wind howling, baby crying, clock ticking, or any other sound referred to in the game's text description. Is the online version supposed to have sounds or music? Is this silence normal? Does the downloaded version have sounds? Even old DOS games had midi music. If I'm not getting sounds that I should be getting, I'd like to know.

Last year many Gameboomers played an online game called Faradise. It had a lot of interactivity and was suitable for slow modem connections. There were also sound effects which added a lot to the ambiance. So it seems like it should be possible to have an online version of LadyStar which includes sound.

Thanks for the comments about the on-line version of LadyStar.

LadyStar has no soundtrack.

There are several things we, as a game company, do well: Character design, story, setting, background images, browser-based game engines, etc.

There are several things we don't do well (yet): Soundtracks, FMV in-game cutscenes, background music, animation, voice-overs, etc.

We're going to concentrate on our strengths and not over-reach, and for good reasons (we think).

Adding sound and music will do several things: make the game more expensive, make it even more difficult to download (by increasing file size), limit (or eliminate) cross-platform capability while increasing technical support headaches (for customers first, then us), increase development time, and so on.

While a thrilling orchestral soundtrack and slick Hollywood-esque sound effects would add to the gee-whiz factor to the game, the expense of producing them far outweighs the potential benefits, not to mention the fact that browsers are VERY unreliable when it comes to sound, especially when you consider that over half of our downloads are for platforms other than Windows.

LadyStar seeks only to be what it is: a simple, humble adventure game which relies on a good, complex epic story and well-written characters to provide an enjoyable game.

We made a decision a long time ago not to over-reach and try to make it into a Hollywood-competitive blockbuster-ambitious multimedia extravaganza. This likely disqualifies a lot of potential customers who will assume that LadyStar is unworthy simply because it does not seek to replace substance with glitz, but I doubt we could have impressed those customers anyway, soundtrack or no.

I do appreciate the comments though, and recommend the third episode if you are looking for more traditional adventure. The first two episodes are more story intros than anything else. Thanks again.

Heavycat,

It sounds to me, with all acknowledgement to the power of hindsight, that the biggest problem with the plan was in those 18 months you spent doing market research.

After all, this discussion board right here -- this is your market. And yet it doesn't seem as if the reactions of the people here are at all what you wanted/expected to hear.

The problem may've been with the research itself. Even when market research is performed correctly, which is overwhelmingly RARE -- it is minimally useful, otherwise the company with the best market research would dependably have the best sales, and that's not the case.

OTOH, the problem may've been with the way the research was handled afterwards: what was ignored, what was taken into account, what was followed slavishly.

The name Ladystar itself, so soft in its imagery, is not going to appeal to males. The roster of characters makes it clear that the game's main cast consists largely of females. (And if market research has proven anything in this area, it's that males don't generally like playing female characters, unless you go the "Lara Croft" shooting-and-big-bosoms route). While I think the attitude of male players is pretty Neanderthal, failing to acknowledge it -- or deliberately snubbing it -- is NOT the way to turn a profit in an industry where males are such a large part of the core audience.

On a slightly more philosophical note, you've expressed a desire to appeal to EVERY ADVENTURE GAME FAN ("and then some") simultaneously. That's a very good way not to appeal to anyone.

I support your ideas and your work, and I'll look into LADYSTAR to see what it offers.

Yours truly,
Josh Mandel

Ahem........I have enjoyed games where the main characters are female and I'm no neanderthal. One game that comes to mind that I enjoyed so much is King's Quest 7. Good story, great graphics and the music was wonderful.

However, for an online game. Let the software developers do what they want and just enjoy the game when it comes out. Of course there are some games out there that are not as highly enjoyable as others. Another game with a female lead that I enjoyed was the action game No One Lives Forever.

I just wanted to let Josho know here that there are guys out there who do enjoy games with female leads. I happen to be one of them. As long as they have a great story and graphics, I don't mind the sound at all. Sometimes I completely forget that there is any sound at all in the game. Of course, with games like Thief, you have to completely depend on sound in order for a successful run of the game. Well, there's my two cents about men enjoying games with female leads. Any other guys out there care to add in their ideas to mine?

I'm with you, Mac. I've played and enjoyed KQ7, TLJ, WoT, AM's Alice, NOLF, some TR, GK2 w/Grace, Drakan, etc. and have little to no problem playing female characters. It was the gameplay and stories that made these games along with the (and I don't mean to harp on this) grown-up sensiblities of these characters that interested me in these games. And I didn't have to download them piecemeal.

If, for some reason, the boomers who play into the game come back to report that it's a wowser and the storyline is worth the download trouble, etc. I might think about playing, but as far as I could see now with all the games out there I'm trying to play, Ladystar has not appealed to my sensiblities as a grown-up guy. But that's only my singular opinion. Good Luck, heavycat & co.!

After all, this discussion board right here -- this is your market.

Along with others: casual game players, girls, anime fans, etc.

The name Ladystar itself, so soft in its imagery, is not going to appeal to males.

Maybe not. The title, like just about everything in the game, is significant beyond just sounding cool.

The roster of characters makes it clear that the game's main cast consists largely of females.... turn a profit in an industry where males are such a large part of the core audience

Well, LadyStar is an all-girl team. Its story is similar to a genre of anime known as "bishoujo sentai" which literally means "pretty girl fighting team."

Properly written, LadyStar may appeal to both females and males: females because, well, LadyStar has more female heroes than the rest of the game industry combined, and males because of the swords and magic and monsters.

I support your ideas and your work, and I'll look into LADYSTAR to see what it offers.

We appreciate your interest, and thanks for the comments.

Nobody need "ahem" at my comments re: male players playing female protagonists. I'm well aware that there are plenty of exceptions; I'm one, myself (just got done spending I-dunno-how-many-hundred-hours playing Diablo and Diablo II as a female character).

However, in largest part, males -- particularly children and teen males -- are not NEARLY as open to playing female characters as females are open to playing male characters. This was true back in the early 1990s when we asked the question in every single survey we sent out at Sierra On-Line -- the male respondents were DOWN, DOWN, DOWN on playing female characters, and the female players were nonjudgmental about whether they played a male or female. This was just as true two weeks ago when I attended focus groups on the latest adventure game I've been working on for the past 18 months. The game allows you to play as EITHER a male protagonist or a female protagonist. The focus group kids -- consisting of children anywhere from 7 to 16 -- were sent the game 2 weeks prior to attending the focus groups.

When they arrived at the focus groups, one of the first questions we asked was how many girls played as the girl protagonist, how many girls played as the boy protagonist, how many boys played as the boy protagonist, and how many boys played as the girl protagonist. In each group, with very little variation, the girls tried playing the game both ways. In most of the groups, NONE of the boys tried playing as a girl.

(Mind you, I'm not a believer in focus groups, as what's reported is so heavily influenced by what others are saying and doing at the moment...but it can't be ignored that thousands and thousands of anonymous, privately-filled-out surveys sent in over the course of half a decade by Sierra On-Line game players reported almost exactly the same results.)

Adult males are a good deal less likely to be so negative about playing as a female character.

BTW, for what it's worth, I agree with those who say they have no interest in playing online games. I don't like my gameplaying to depend on the vagaries of server status, ISP problems, the talent and availability of other live players, the tendency of other online players to make life miserable for "newbies," or any of those problems. Maybe if I were into "fragging," I'd feel differently, but right now, I like to choose when to play, whom to play, and how to play, and online play takes much of that choice away from me.

--Josh

I may not notice the sound so much while I'm playing a game either. But I certainly notice the lack of it. Without some sort of sound, I don't feel like it's a complete game. In fact, I played midis while I was testing the online version of LadyStar because the silence of the game bothered me.

About guys playing female characters:

I remember reading a complaint about "Wheel of Time" in one of the newsgroups a couple of years ago: The gamer said the problem he had with the game wasn't so much that you had to play a girl as that she was a "girly girl." I think it's even worse with LadyStar. You play as a giggly adolescent female rather than as an adult. I think this would likely turn off not only guys but adult gamers in general.

You play as a giggly adolescent female rather than as an adult. I think this would likely turn off not only guys but adult gamers in general.

Alas, all must start from somewhere, and a long path stretches to the horizon before these characters.

Suffice to say that there are many things that are unknown by players about the LadyStar characters at this point, and Jessica, although a main character, is but one of seven distinct and unique personalities among the girls, all of whom contribute to the game and story, and all of whom will be playable during the course of the game.

Jen,

From what you have played right now. You haven't had given a chance to meet some of the characters in the other episodes. I agree that Jessica is just a little bit on the giggly side. But, characters other than that seem more mature than they really are. There definitely does seem to be more of a puzzle-solving in Episode Three. If you don't want to do that, maybe you could help me out by playing Episode Three and solving the puzzle a long with me. This girl in Episode Three doesn't seem to be as giggly as Jessica is, though. Let me know if you would like to take a shot at Episode Three with me!

A phrase that comes to my mind when reading this thread is "kill your darlings". It seems to me that the developers of Ladystar aren't prepared to do this. Instead of reevaluating their design decisions, they try to convince us by words that the game in its current state will appeal to lots of people with different interests if we just give it a chance. Maybe the parts that you, the designers, like most are the parts that the players don't care much about?

Sound for example, someone said that the lack of sound is disturbing, you should take this point seriously! Not just turn the argument down by saying that sound would make the files too big. You made the design decision to exclude sound, well that may be the wrong choice. Even the early graphic adventures had midi music and adventure players aren't used to walking around in a silent world. Yet you think this is unimportant.

I don't think it's possible to please everyone with one game, instead you run quite a big risk to displease everyone. Maybe this thread comes too late in the game development, maybe you should have asked the would-be players much earlier. Just pleading for people to like the game and pay for it doesn't make it more attractive.

Sorry if this post sounds harsh. But if you come here to ask our opinions (most of us are adventure game lovers!) on a game that obviously doesn't attract the number of people you'd hoped for, don't expect us to tell you that all seems well, keep up the good work and we'll buy your game to be nice. Many people have given their honest opinions as to why the game doesn't appeal to them and what should be changed, and if you want to make the game interesting for us, listen to our opinions and don't be afraid to kill your darlings!

Pernilla

Well said Pernilla.

Hi,

Pernilla, your post said it beautifully.

The other day there was a problem with LadyStar because Internet Explorer version 6 (IE6) was not behaving as did earlier versions of IE.

Somewhere in postings from LadyStar, I read that there might come a time when players would be required to use the Mozilla browser because it has never had a problem.

This didn't seem to me to be a solution that made any sense. As a developer myself, I have to make the program do what is necessary to serve the customer. I am not in a position to make them change their ways to handle a problem I might have because of Microsoft.

I believe with the best of intentions and eight months of market research and lots of time (beautiful pictures) and effort, the product itself isn't there yet.

I got lost in a forest in chapter three and haven't gone back yet. I really don't like mazes very much at all.

Regards, Aberfoyle

Instead of reevaluating their design decisions, they try to convince us by words that the game in its current state will appeal to lots of people with different interests if we just give it a chance.

The game in its current state *does* appeal to lots of people with different interests. That's the whole point. What we don't understand is why the pageviews/downloads number is so far out of proportion with the registration numbers, especially considering that LadyStar is about $5 more expensive than a steak dinner.

It's funny that you mention "give it a chance." So far, we have published three episodes, one of which most people haven't even played through yet. We still have 10+ characters to introduce, and we're perhaps 1% of the way into an 800 page story. If you're looking for "Instant Gee-Whiz," LadyStar will be a disappointment.

It is no different than investing in mutual funds. There can't be a really great payoff if there is no investment. Great things might be happening on page 700, but people who read the first four paragraphs and go "eh, boring" will miss out. The greatness of page 700 absolutely depends on the foundation built by page one.

Sound for example, someone said that the lack of sound is disturbing, you should take this point seriously! Not just turn the argument down by saying that sound would make the files too big. You made the design decision to exclude sound, well that may be the wrong choice.

It may be, and I think we should be allowed to be less than perfect. We didn't just reject the argument by saying the files would be too big, although that is a major consideration, given the dozens of people who have slow dial-up connections. We also have to consider that the sound might work on one platform, but not on another. (This is very likely, given the fact that what works on Windows is usually broken everywhere else).

But the larger point is that we do not want to overreach. We could spend weeks producing a mediocre soundtrack, (or worse, a bad soundtrack) and please those people who want sound, but displease numerous others who expect a soundtrack to be of a certain quality. Better that it be excluded than be sub-standard quality.

I suppose we could offer a super-glitz multimedia extravaganza with 50MB episode downloads and a $59.95 price tag, but that's not going to make anyone happy, and I'm not all that sure it will make the game better. It will take our attention away from our strengths: characters, story, setting, graphics.

Like all design decisions, there is a tradeoff. We made our choice, and that means that people who support the other viewpoint will be disappointed. That doesn't mean they have to give up on the game completely, though.

If sound is ever included, it will be in the form of an FMV, which solves the technical problems and also limits the risk of producing a poor product.

I don't think it's possible to please everyone with one game, instead you run quite a big risk to displease everyone.

So you can't please everyone, but you *can* displease everyone?

Just pleading for people to like the game and pay for it doesn't make it more attractive.

I don't think we're "pleading" for people to like the game. Given our download numbers, and our guestbook comments, and e-mail, etc., I'd say we have answered the question of whether or not people like the game.

if you want to make the game interesting for us, listen to our opinions

Hey, we're here, and myself and the rest of the team are listening, and we're discussing what we hear all the time. I think we're doing at least an above average job compared to other developers.

But it is unfair to ask a game company, after having invested years of work, to go back and re-develop their game, re-write their characters, re-engineer their platform, and so forth, because players might prefer if this feature or that feature were included. Maybe we can improve those things in a sequel, or an add-on, but we can't go back and rip out the foundation of the entire project at this point.

Many of the comments are about the fact that Jessica and the other characters are just kids, and not adults. I suppose we could dye Jessica's hair black, give her a lot of black eyeshadow, age her 15 years and have her walk around being angsty and sour and depressed all the time, but pop culture has produced far too many of those characters already.

Jessica is who she is for a reason. I think there's room in the world for a cheerful, slightly silly adolescent female, and I don't think she is any less a potential hero than any of the other characters in adventure games. Plus, Jessica gives LadyStar its personality.

We do appreciate all of the comments we receive, and please don't assume that because I personally may not agree with them, that they are any less valuable to us. We know that adventure game fans want good products, and we're working as hard as we can to provide them. We may not be 100% perfect, but we'll at least always be improving.

Thanks again.

You guys may be slow in developing your story, but, I hope that you guys have come up with something good for the later volumes. <img border="0" alt="[winky]" title="" src="graemlins/winky.gif" />

a problem with LadyStar because Internet Explorer version 6 (IE6) was not behaving as did earlier versions of IE.

Which has since been fixed

(Thanks, M$. We appreciated that.)

Somewhere in postings from LadyStar, I read that there might come a time when players would be required to use the Mozilla browser because it has never had a problem.

If we have another unplanned "breakage" in IE, this is very likely. The total refit to over 300 files that was required after IE6 broke compatibility with Gecko represents the upper limit on time that we can devote out of our production schedule to broken products.

This didn't seem to me to be a solution that made any sense. As a developer myself, I have to make the program do what is necessary to serve the customer.

There is no disservice to the customer to ask them to use a particular program to view a particular kind of information.

I am not in a position to make them change their ways to handle a problem I might have because of Microsoft.

This is why Microsoft is able to break their browser with each release. It becomes the reponsbility of every other software development company to invest time and money fixing Microsoft bugs, because their customers do not demand that Microsoft reliably support published, industry-wide standards.

We can improve the quality of LadyStar by 50% overnight if we chose to only support Mozilla. We made the decision, however, to also support IE, and we are continuing to do so, to a point.

I got lost in a forest in chapter three and haven't gone back yet. I really don't like mazes very much at all.

We'll be putting the Hint-O-Matic on-line in a few days (and announcing it here) if you want to bypass the forest puzzle.

Thanks for the comments.

One tiny little question, Scott? Who is M$? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

Who is M$?

That would be Micro$oft.

Scott,

Do you think you could check out my question over on the Hints page labelled as Ladystar? Thanks!

I reread your first post and it seems you are saying if we (adventure game player)dont buy every adventure game out there, you and others with stop making them. Does that mean if I dont download and pay for your game you will stop making it? No I dont think so.If I want to buy a game I read the box and see what it is about. If I like what I read I buy it. If I am not quite sure if I want it I go online and find a review for it. But it is my choice.If I buy a real stinker of a game I would hesitate about buying another one from that company. But still its my choice.
I respect everyones opinion on this board and every one is quite unique with their opinions. They should be heard.
And anyway I still dont know if this game is just a slide show or is there movement in the game? And if there is no sound how do the characters talk? Or do you have to read it?(Wish I still had my old commador64)

I wasn't going to get into this, as I am one of the peoples that do NOT download games, or play them online.
But- seems to me that you have a 'game' that most people so far that HAVE given it a try, do not seem to think is much of a 'game' at all. You say it will take time (many, many episodes ) before one would get hooked on your story. I'm sorry, but if you can't get hooked in (at the very most ) 15 to 20 minutes, your 'game' will never get off the ground.
You say page 700 ( or 200, 300 )will have something great??? No one in their right mind is going to get even as far as a page 20 without some kind of reward for getting there.

Also, using 'The Forgotten" as one example, (which was a VERY good game) most people with money to spend do NOT open their checkbook or wave the plastic for the idea of possibly getting interested in another game, then when it fizzles, as ALMOST all that have been attempted to sell in chapters do, the feeling is, "MORE money down the drain." The perception of most players is, why start something that will never be finished.
You insist we are wrong in your case, yet you have admitted already that you will not be able to continue without people buying the product. You must remember, you first have to have a product people WANT to buy.

You have asked for advice here and on other discussion boards, but the advice, mostly GOOD advice, you shrug off, and say you are going to do this the way YOU want & like. That is your perogative, after all, it IS your 'game'. But it is the PLAYER's money, and that is who has to like the product, for the money to flow your way.
If there are so many fans (as you state) that are crazy about wht you are offering, then why have none of them participated in your offering?? Where are they hiding? What are they waiting for?

I personally think LadyStar is a very cute little girl, but a game needs so much more, and from the dozens & dozens of posts I have read so far, it sounds like you have not reached that point yet.

I have a question Heavycat.Is the cost of each episode 17.95 or is that for the whole game? If there are 5 episodes each at 17.95 that would make the game cost 89.75.Wow.Also it said on your site after the 5th episode a cd-rom game would be made containing all 5 episodes. If that is true why would people want to download the game if they can wait to get their own copy and play at their leisure.
Also if people have downloaded the game and have bought each episode and you decided you havent made that much money on it and quit making it what happens to the people who have played a few episodes and cant continue to the end of the game?They bought the game with the intention of finishing it, they would feel cheated.
I hope you will answer my questions.

Granny - those are my thoughs exactly. (Except for the part about the Forgotten which made no sense at all to me since I haven't played it.)

HeavyCat - I made an attempt to reply your post, but my mind is blank. What can I say that haven't already been mentioned? There's no way to change people's mind, and if 20 minutes is what you have to catch their interest, then that's what you have to deal with.

You have simplified your website and that may be a start. It may be enough to make people try the first episode, but if they don't like it enough it doesn't matter that there may be something great on page 700. You need to give the player something that will catch his/her interest. I know of people who have started to read Lord of the Rings but gave up because "all they did was walk". These people knew that things would be happening later in the story but the way to the action was too long.

What I see here is a disappointed game designer who may have set their goals too high (wanting to please everyone) and asked the potential players' opinions too late. It's sad, really, but like Granny said - if the customers don't like the product enough they take their money elsewhere. That's how the market works and game design will always be a trade-off between the designer's dreams and the customers "demands". If you're not ready to change your views, you may continue to be disappointed. I don't know what else to say.

Pernilla

Is the cost of each episode 17.95 or is that for the whole game?

The whole game. $17.95 gets you 52 episodes plus the bonus episode.

why would people want to download the game if they can wait to get their own copy and play at their leisure.

Because the CD-ROM will not be available for at least a year.

I'll answer the other obvious question too: why would someone buy the electronic version and then pay again for the CD-ROM?

Answer: There is an upgrade price from the electronic version to the CD-ROM which is much lower, and purchase (or pre-order) of the CD-ROM includes registration of the electronic version. Either way, the customer gets full value.

and you decided you havent made that much money on it and quit making it

Not going to happen. We have an interactive map for 52 episodes, an 821 page narrative, a game engine, and 3GB of artwork (approximately 1400 files) already developed. It would make no sense at all to throw all of that away. That's one of the main reasons we are as motivated as we are to see LadyStar do well, and I'm certain it will.

I know of people who have started to read Lord of the Rings but gave up because "all they did was walk".

lol Would that LadyStar could aspire to a fraction of the success and excellence of Lord of the Rings! I think this probably makes my point better than anything else. LadyStar is not about gee-whiz and instant gratification. It is an epic story of honor and friendship and loyalty.

Such a story cannot be reduced to an elevator pitch or a soundbite. We are not a churn and label company, and LadyStar will be a product of craftsmanship, not assembly lines.

These people knew that things would be happening later in the story but the way to the action was too long.

I'll guess that this did not inspire Tolkien to start again with a blank sheet of paper.

What I see here is a disappointed game designer who may have set their goals too high (wanting to please everyone) and asked the potential players' opinions too late.

Hmmm.. what I see here is exactly what we expected. We never set a goal of pleasing everyone, and I am personally a long LONG way from being disappointed. The response to LadyStar has been nothing short of incredible.
Pleasing everyone is the approach of the sequel and clone game industry where it goes by another name: the lowest common denominator.

There are those who hate the puzzles already. Others don't like the characters. Others want more interactivity and less page-to-page. Still others want more story and less clicking. Some people like the artwork, others don't. We knew in advance that we couldn't please everyone, and we certainly aren't going to put 1500 potential customers in a room and try to dictate a game design from the ensuing discussion.

What we didn't expect was that adventure game fans, who daily clamor for new games before a less and less responsive, big-money, low-quality game industry, would be so difficult to sell an adventure to.

I also note that many of the people who have replied to this thread do not seem to have played any of the episodes past the first third of the first episode. It shouldn't take more than an hour to go through the first two, and perhaps another hour to get through the third (depeding on how long the puzzle takes). It's free. Why not give it a try, since there is no cost involved other than a couple of hours?

As I said before, we will continue to improve, and LadyStar will be the main beneficiary of those improvements. Perhaps later episodes will be of more interest. In the meantime, we really can't do any better than our best.