I believe we should fully support our independent adventure game developers. We are all complaining that the stores don't stock as many adventure games as we would like them to. We will depend more and more on indie developers to give us the excellent games that we have been seeing of late.
Matt Clark has produced such a game with 100 people having been lucky enough to receive it early. What really is bothering me is that the game is already up for trade. Why can't everyone support Matt and buy this game? Perhaps in a few years if it is a difficult game to find then offer it for trade.

Manxman -- you can read a previous discussion of the issue of trading Indie games here.

More than 100 people received the game early -- anyone who preordered by the deadline received it early (I did and I was well past the first 100 orders).

I hear your rant but not everyone can afford a new game every time they want to play one. I agree about supporting indie developers,but like I said not everyone can afford too.

Cathy

Becky, thanks for the link, I just wanted to offer my opinion. Sorry for the repeat
Also, I erred about the 100 number...sorry.

Cathy1-I understand the expense of buying games but we can't have it both ways. If we want to encourage indie developers then we must find a way to buy their games.

From the previous link that Becky referred to from Brian W.:

Since I am the one trading it, let me restate my position. I do support indie games- I always buy them from the developer. On top of that, I provide voice acting to indie developers free of charge. However, to single out the issue of trading or reselling just an independent game is short sighted. Is it OK then to resell or trade a commercial game?
I know my game budget is predicated on the fact that I will resell the game, thus allowing me more money to ultimately put back into the adventure gaming community. I will not spend $30.00 on Keepsake, but if I know I can resell it for at least $20.00, I can certainly spend $10.00 on it.
There are a number of people that would not even think of purchasing certain games at certain prices or without trading and that market would be untapped. So how is that cutting into the same market that would have purchased the game from the developer? Of course it is impossible to know this, but it is certainly a side to the arguement.
And that's my rant.

Please allow me to respectfully agree with challis3. I too was an early 'preorderer' of Barrow Hill . I think it's a great game and have consigned it to my "Keeper" shelf where it will remain and be replayed several times. I preordered Keepsake too, and am half way through it. When I have finished that game, it's gone! The decision to keep or resell is based strictly on my opinion of the game. Who developed it really doesn't matter. Good is good (Barrow Hill). Less than good is for sale. the decision is based strictly on my opinion. After all, they're my games.

I think it is more the timing which is at issue - I buy the Indie games I want direct from teh developer when they come out, but in a few months or a year when they are no longer availabkle, I would have no qualms about buying a second hand copy. Barrow Hill is not officially released until Monday so to offer it before then isn't really supporting the developer who may be on a tight budget too.

I used to buy every game that came out, good or bad. I cant do that anymore. Im retired and am on disability. Most the games I have been buying lately are on the second hand market. I also believe that once I or anyone purchases the game and owns the game it is that persons right to do with it whatever they want. Keep it , Sell it or trade it.

To clarify- I didn't realize the game didn't get released to the general public until tomorrow- nor did I realize it could be played without the disk. I simply did what I always do- when finishing a game put it up for trade. It's easy to say wait a year, but the reality is, most games lose their value and they become harder to trade. I don't know if I would buy the volume of indies I do now if I knew I would not be allowed to trade them when finished.

Hi manxman! Your rant is quite unjustified! I am aware that 100 copies have been sent out to those who preordered - but when I tried to buy this game over a week ago the message on the website was it was generally available to buy from the 25th? - I am sure that was the date and it is only the 23rd today! I have had another look at the webssite and I see it is now available!

As in previous times when this topic was discussed, let's be sure and keep it friendly, folks. Each side of this discussion has merit.

I can understand the dilema of INDIE games. But for me the games wanting $40.00 to $50.00 and up I can not afford. What I have done is wait until the price is in my range, being disable and fixed income I can't afford to spend big dollars. I get my games most time brand new but, I have gotten many older games at used retail places. I don't sell mine I keep mine because, I usually buy what I like. The first game I bought from INDIE is Borrow Hill and I love this game and the price was worth it. Just because I buy a game used does not mean I won't buy new.

The process of selling and purchasing used games has been around forever and will always be. The big problem from an Indie developer's perspective is that since they ONLY sell the games online they don't have the benefit of getting additional purchases from retail chains. Every single copy that sells from their website is crucial.

I don't think anyone is telling anyone else they should not sell/buy used Indie games. I think the point of threads like this is to educate people and say if you CAN buy a new version from the developer it shows a lot more support than you might think.

-Bryan

Sorry manxman! I missed the point of your rant and realised it was because Barrow Hill was up for resale before it had been generally released!

I am lucky enough at the moment to be able to buy games I want new and make a point of ordering from the developer if I can as I want to support them to carry on making games! But I can appreciate that for people on limited incomes that if they choose to support a developer by buying new they are limited to experiencing fewer games. In the same situation I would buy as cheaply as possible so I could play more - which means secondhand - who would do any different? It may not support the developers but does support the genre! I also agree that once someone has paid the money for a game it is theirs to resell if they want to.

I think in the case of Barrow Hill it probably wasn't a good idea to send out pre-orders ahead of an official release date. I certainly found it frustrating that people had the game and I had to wait to buy it!

I might be in the minority as far as the opinion of indie developers goes, but - as an indie developer - I have no issues with someone trading or reselling a game they have purchased from me. They purchased the game. That gives them the right to do what they want with it, as long as they don't make a copy for themselves before selling/trading it.

What bothers me far more are people who make copies of the game and sell them repeatedly on sites like eBay. I consider that to be illegal and unjust. But people who wish to trade, sell, or auction a used game that they legitimately purchased aren't doing anything wrong, in my opinion.

Am I losing money? Perhaps. But I feel that customers' rights are more important. They are allowed to trade commercial games, and so they should be allowed to trade indie ones, as well.

Just my opinion.

As an Indie Developer I don't want to comment on the foregoing comments BUT I would like to add my personal 2c worth:

I gave up on any ideas of making any money from this activity a long time ago ... all I strive for is enough $$$$ to cover pressing high quality CDs and paying all my web hosting fees.

My rewards come from all my interactions with my players and this is the reason for this post ... purchasing my games from anyone but me means that we both miss out on that. So ... if your circumstances are such that you need some form of discount ... I'd be delighted to hear from you ... I'm sure we can work something out.

Best wishes and Happy Gaming to All

Peter

For any new members who might not be aware of Peter's accomplishments, he is the developer who gave us the two beautiful games Xiama and Magnetic, and who satisfies our "puzzle" longing with weekly (or more frequent) jigsaw puzzles.

And you can check out his great free jigsaw puzzle offer here ...

This is the way I do it..

I resell a game I didn't like, the money I get from this goes to the next game a buy from the publisher, I know I am not going to get back what I pay for, and I probably only have to put in out of my pocket a little more..And these are games I didn't like, and won't ever play again..

The ones I do like, you going to have to rip it off my hands..Those stay with me for a life time..

I know not everyone does what I do..In a way I am still buying games from the publisher either way..

I will always support the developers, I want them to continue brings us great games for us to play..So I do strongly agree, we need to support them..

They are your games, so do what you want with them. Just try and wait a while before selling them off at half price.

It is true that if you've paid for a game you should be able to do what you want with it. As long as it's legal, and does not conflict with the End User License Agreement. A single copy of a game can be traded. But, please, lets differentiate between 'trading' and re-selling. Anyone is allowed to trade their games.

But, like Chris said above, that does not mean copying it and selling it illegally. That does damage the indie scene. Trading a game is another matter. Some people seem to have an allergic reaction to online ordering, so rely on trade to acquire new games. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as the person trading has not copied the disk.

With no control over where game units are going there is a further risk of increased piracy. Some may be surprised to learn how easy it is to pinpoint pirates. If a pirate game appears within the first week of official sales it does not take long to check the records and locate the culprit, and then take immediate action.

Furthermore, I find it upsetting when certain individuals order more than one copy of an indie game, stating that one was for friends or family, only to see it on Ebay on the day of arrival, knowing full well the game is rare (in comparison to a mainstream release). That's dishonest, but there's little you can do about it. It would not be the first time that individuals have attempted to profiteer from others hard work.

I'm glad that adventure games still appear in stores in the US, but it certainly is not the case in the UK. More often than not adventure games have to be ordered online, and shipped.

The PC section of all game stores is shrinking fast, so the days of buying PC games (in stores) are numbered. Add to this the small fact that large publishers 'reserve' shelf space for titles. If they do not have a title to release, the space is rented to another publisher for big bucks. The position on the shelf (in terms of head height) and number of units is reflected in the price of the rental.

The future of game distribution is online. Whether this happens quickly, or slowly, is another matter.

As with any venture, there are highlights and pitfalls. Creating and publishing a full game is one of the most intimidating projects you can imagine, especially for an individual. Unlike many of the copy'n'paste games produced by the larger development studios, an indie effort is always a personal project, with time, personal finance and passion invested from the very start. The game sells in, relatively, tiny numbers in comparison to the mainstream. It's easy to keep track on who has copies, and who does not. That, I feel, is why it's upsetting that a few of those orders were made purely to re-sell with absolutely no benefits to the developer, or their future games.

Lastly, thanks to Manxman for a lively topical topic. It's nice to see some bristling text here and there. It shows that interest and opinion is as strong as ever. It is a forum after all.

On a positive note, which I always prefer to end on, I will say that it's wonderful to see more indie games appearing year by year. The opportunity to sell indie games online has become a mini-industry in itself, and means we (as gamers) are able to choose from a delightfully diverse range of games, styles and subject matter. The indie scene is delicate, but it is supported, and can only thrive as more and more gamers become accustomed to online ordering.

Jonathan