Hi!

Many of us on this forum like 3rd person games because we can't deal with the motion sickness that comes with the 360 spinning in 1st person games. Others really prefer 1st person games. Since many people loved SH The Awakened in the re-mastered version (that can be played in either 1st or 3rd person)I am wondering why other game developers don't makes games that can be played in both perspectives. Is it the expense or are they harder to design?

Since I don't design games and therefor don't know much about the process, I am wondering if some of you who know something about this can answer my question. No matter how fantastic the reviews are, I won't buy a game that is in 1st person with 360 panning and I am sure that there are others who won't either.

So, even if it is more expensive to design a game this way, it seems to me that by doing this they would attract more players instead of just the ones who want 1st or 3rd person games.

Thanks.

I think it's a matter of what effect the developer wants to have. I happen to like both kinds and it depends on the story.

Ana

I have a preference for third person perspective games but there has been many made in 1st person that I've enjoyed playing just as much so it would be a shame to miss out because you think the game may make you feel ill.

I did get motion sickness with the original Sherlock Holmes - The Awakened & also Nemesis but I think it's less to do with 360% panning & more with how the game is controlled. The Sherlock Holmes used a very intuitive system which succeeded, I thought, in moving around more naturally in the environment but with the unfortunate effect of causing nausea for many players.

It's worth checking out a game that has 360% panning, rather than avoiding it, as it can just mean that you can look all around you & perhaps up & down, either with a fixed cursor that you can move at your own pace or sometimes a 'floating cursor' that you can usually 'slow down', or even stop, in the settings menu of the game!

There are very few 1st person perspective AGS with 360% panning that I have played that have caused the motion sickness I experienced in the Sherlock Holmes games.

There are a lot of very good 1st person games with '360% panning' & it is well worth posting here, if it appeals to you, to ask whether other players have experienced any motion sickness with a particular game.

Sorry Gatsbygirl - for many games what you're asking for would be implementing the game twice. If the game is using a full 3D engine (like Dreamfall for instance) it becomes more doable but not attractive to do so (it doubles up things like testing for instance.)

Game designers might well design a game differently for first or third person, to make use of the different perspectives.

The URU games gives a choice between 1st or 3rd person. This came in handy when the charactor had to jump a long distance while standing in just the right place. I experimented with both but I find 3rd person is best in those particular games.

I play all games how they come, either 1st or 3rd person.

Kickaha,

It seems like SH:The Awakened -Remastered(it originally came out in 1st person perspective)came pretty quickly after the original.

Because it came out so quickly, after the original, it made me wonder: if it is fairly easy to change a game from 1st to 3r pe
derson (or vice versa).Why don't game developers follow this format for all PC games. Just wondering.

Thanks.

I might have a piece of info here, as The Awakened developer.

You can have 1st or 3rd person ONLY if the game was made in full 3D. and that only few games are. All games made with prerendered backgrounds are disqualified. and count 95% of the current adventure games in them.
Full 3D are Sherlock Holmes games of course, Penumbra, Dreamfall or Uru (i should forget some), all others are with prerendered backgrounds...
Full 3D is 3-4 times more expensive than prerendered backgrounds, in term of ressources, technology, art, etc...

Even if the games are made in full 3D, you must have created a protagonist and characters and create what we call "character controller" for it. create all animations and create a system that can allow the character to move in the world with 2 different system, and of course, as the Awakened, to be able to switch between them in a click...

Also you have art problem, the quality of details is not the same when you look far or close (you have the nose on the environment where you're in 1stPP or at the opposite you must get beautiful overall picture when you play in 3rdpp), and in the double perspective games, you have to create art for both, while keeping good playing performances. As the average adventure player is not a computer geek buying the latest video card.

in the end you can do a game with 5 guys, if it's prerendered background, few characters, and average length time.

for full 3D you need 20 people minimum (the Awakened required 40 people during a year). So the cost only (and I even don't speak about experience, solid teams and know-how) will prevent many companies to have games with 1st and 3rd PP. This is why unfortunately you won't see more and more double perspective game, even if we believe it's the way it should be done today to gather the biggest audience.

That was very helpful!

I agree !!

The first time I've ever understood the implications

the hood

It's always good to understand more about the process which brings us the games we love

thehood,

Thank you for the great info. I figured that it is probably too expensive,among other things,for developers to do this.I tried but couldn't play the original 1st person version but LOVED the re-mastered version of The Awakened. I only played it in 3rd person. I didn't switch back and forth between the two perspectives but that is a great option for those who want to do this.

Thank you for offering both versions. The graphics were outstanding! I have heard that the next SH game might be a double perspective game too. Any truth to this?

Several people have mentioned Uru games. What is that?

Speaking as a developer, maybe there is a way of doing it, and that is to use the '2.5D' favoured by engines such as Wintermute (which we used for 'Rhiannon') and others. Such engines are designed to allow a 3rd person actor to move across a 2D representation of a 3D space by changing the size of the actor in real time as it moves away from and toward the observer. It's not really a 3D space, but a 2D backdrop and the realtime resizing of the actor gives the 3D illusion. Tunguska uses 2.5D methods - so does The Lost Crown I believe, and these are 3rd person games.
But because you have a 2D backdrop, you could omit the actors altogether (as we did in 'Rhiannon') and make the hotspots react immediately to the first person clicking them rather than having the actor first walk to them and comment on them, third person style.
But I agree with the previous comment that although it's possible in theory to swap between the two, everything would have to be written and tested in both modes, increasing the cost and time of development.
Essentially though, it comes down to what the director wants the audience to experience - and he or she has probably decided that the game shall be either 1st or 3rd person for artistic, story and gameplay reasons. The technology merely enables the art.

Cheers

Noel Bruton
Arberth Studios

Sherlock Holmes versus Jack the Ripper offers both perspective, as it was planned since the beginning of the game, the levels were planned for both perspective and the result is even better than in the Awakened. Next week we'll release a first teaser called "Whitechapel portraits" and you'll see the new render and perspective the game delivers.

@thehood

I still have nemesis lying around, but can't finish it because of motion sickness.
Any plans of making a remake of this one too?

Oh and good news about SH vs. Ripper - this one I can't wait to get my hands on

misslilo,

I didn't buy SH Nemesis because of this. I have been hoping to hear that it is being remastered, too. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

Great! Thanks for the info.

Serlock Holmes vs Arsene Lupin remastered is on its way too, it will be released in 2009 as well.

That's great news !!
I liked the game, but the motion sickness was worse than with The Awakened and I couldn't finish it.

Wonderful!!!! Thank you so much.

Thanks for the info thehood, I played it as Nemesis & because of the vast playing area in some locations enjoyed this a lot less than I might have done because of motion sickness! I would definitely like to play it again in 3rd person!

From my point of view the problem is not 360 but the speed of response and the controls. As a solitary player this is not much problem but we usually play using a bigish screen with at least one person watching rather than controlling. If you think, as a watcher, that the movement is going to be one way and it actually is the other way. Not sure what the best way to describe the effect on the eyes/brain but it is certainly not good. If watching I would prefer the scrolling to be slower.

Before doing the 3rdPP we made the 1stPP, and many players, including on GB, complained about the motion sickness. We tried to change some settings for the camera in the game to make it better, but as far as we analysed it, some people are more sensitive than others to the 360 degrees panning, you can use google on this theme, you will find numerous answers.
Difficulty for us was that mainly we can find 3 categories of players when we speak about 1st Person Perspective :
- never sick
- always sick
- sometimes sick

this problem touches absolutely everybody, young and old. And for the third category some people are sensitive to some games and not others, depending on the FOV, screen refresh rate, overall brigthness, screen borders, tiredness conditions, sick after 10 minutes, 30 minutes, nausea, headache etc...
some people can play UNREAL but cannot play Half Life, some people can't play Myst and can play Far Cry, and vice versa...
As they can play some games and not others, they naturally criticize how the game creating the motion sickness is made.

At the first step (and we tested it with GB members) we created a camera above the shoulder of Sherlock Holmes, as in 80 days, hitman, or tomb raider, the results were better generally but players who suffered motion sickness continued to feel it, camera rotation around the character was really painful for some of them. the game was very dynamic this way, but still unplayable by many, so we moved to fix or rotating camera and mouse control.

If some doctors had a simple cure or advise some FOV settings to reduce this motion sickness that would be great, but we didn't find this in our research.

So the only and sure way to reduce motion sickness was to have 3rd person perspective inside a full 3D game. in the end it's a lot of work but now we don't forget any players.

And thanks from THIS player who very much appreciates such dedication !!

I hadn't realized how much research was involved!

to you The Hood!

Nemesis was my favorite of the ones I have played. I don't generally suffer from motion sickness. But I do remember having to be careful in The Awakened or I became nauseated.

My sister always suffers from it though and now I know I can (or will be able to) get both of them for her.

Does the box for Awakened say "remastered?"

to you guys for responding to the needs of your customers

thanks to the players who make known their taste and allow us to progress

The box of the Awakened is stamped "remastered", an example of the box can be found at Sherlock Holmes web site or Frogwares web site. the boxed remastered version wasn't released yet in the US (and won't be with the current publisher), but it can be found in Canada as far as I know.