Adventuregamers has an interesting series of articles/blogs by Jack Allin (Jackal) on the current state of adventure games.

***Whither the publishers? (or "Publishers wither")***
***Casual invasion: Killing a genre softly***
***Troubling adventure forecast: the last Wii storm cloud***

I thought the second article was particularly interesting.
Here's a quote regarding hidden object games:

• Do you think the author has a point?
• Do you find the puzzles in most current adventure games to be unsatisfying?
• Do you just reach for a walkthrough so you won't have to bother solving them?
• Do you find that more often than not, they are "too easy" or "too hard" or just "not your kind of puzzle" and not worth your time?
• Do you find yourself getting more enjoyment out of hidden object games than you do out of playing adventure games?
• Do you get more enjoyment out of solving the puzzles in older adventure games ("older" meaning older than Syberia)?
• What are your favorite adventure games for puzzles (not story)?

I bought the game Jack Keane; I also bought 'destinatio:treasure island'. And I've found that I do not bother to play these games much anymore as the puzzles in them are way too easy....for me any way. It just seems as the puzzles in these games were designed for a different market than the 40+ or even 50+ thinking gamer. (they seem more designed to be marketed to some younger games, like maybe 20+ or even under the age of 20...?)

On the other hand, the starting puzzle in Nostradamus makes perfect sense logically, but it takes a very long time just to assemble all the things you need, and to just get the game going. Here I would really have liked to have an autowin option -
just to get the story going...

For Overclocked, though, I didn't have to use a walkthrough much - or at all. I just asked my friendly gameboomers for help And I got the help I needed...

These days I usually try to solve the puzzles myself --- sometimes, the puzzles seems very oddly designed, though. And not logical at all....

I like puzzles in general, just for the fun of solving them. It doesn't matter if they're from books, internet (such as the garden here) or in games.

But what makes adventuregames special, is that the puzzles become meaningful in a story, or at least a setting.
In the games I like best, the puzzles keep the story moving and every new one is not another holdup, but a new clue ready to be uncovered.
In this area the Tex Murphy games are unparalleled and they are, for that reason, my favorite adventuregames.

But when only considering the puzzles, Aura and The Sacred Rings top the list for me.
And I'm afraid that is mainly because the difficulty there is just right (for me).
If puzzles are too easy or too hard they won't be the most enjoyable aspect of a game. And if a game relies on puzzle solving (like Aura), it's hard to get it right for everybody.

Anyway, in answer:
- I'm not sure what point is made. But I disagree that adventures are lacking in challenge and fullfillment, although there are those too of course. It's true that 10 minutes adventuring is nothing, and that's exactly what I love about AG's.
- I haven't played most newer games yet, but from what I recently played Dracula Origin, Rhem 2, Keepsake and Agon 4 had enough puzzles I enjoyed.
- I try to stay away from a walkthrough, but I needed one with all those games. The more involving the story is, the longer I can postpone using the WT. And when I find a puzzle to be unfair I won't try as hard with the next.
- Most puzzles are about right for me, but I prefer it to be clear what the puzzle is and then solve it. In puzzle games the main objective is often just to find out what the puzzle is. I dislike those.
- No. I don't enjoy HOG at all.
- I dont think older games were better or worse in terms of puzzle design. But in my opinion they were better in giving meaning to the puzzles. Or maybe that's just Tex Murphy.
- Didn't like the Myst and Schizm games much. For puzzles, I liked: Aura, Sacred Rings, Timelapse, Reah, Echo, Atlantis 3 and the first half of Keepsake (in the second part the clues became to obscure for me).

This was a very interesting series of articles (which I had already read previously). I definitely feel that Jack has made some good points. Mentally I still haven't sorted out whether or not I would agree that adventure game puzzles have gone downhill; I do have a sense that most of the really great adventure games came out in the 1990s and that only a few now measure up to what once was, but I'm open to the idea that perhaps I have just become jaded and that this feeling is wrong.

What I have been pondering of late is why, particularly in the last few months, someone like myself, who literally has hundreds of adventure games, has instead been playing casual games more often than not. Some of it has to do with the fact that they are playable regardless of how tired I am or how little time I have to devote to gaming; I find it frustrating to play adventure games in little bits and snatches, 15 or 30 minutes here and there, and find that if I don't have adequate hours to devote to a full-length adventure game, I invariably get discouraged and the game usually remains unfinished. With a casual game, I don't have to try to remember what has gone before; I can just pick up where I left off, and even ten minutes of play denotes a measure of progress---therein lies the appeal of them for me at the present time.

The last full-length adventure game I actually completed was The Lost Crown (a very long game---which is a testament to how absorbing I found it, considering my previously mentioned time constraints/fatigue!).

And, speaking of Adventure Gamers, it's worth mentioning that they have launched their first-ever adventure-game awards, and that Mystery Case Files: Return to Ravenhearst (a casual game) has been nominated for the best-music category ( an acknowledgment that, with this game at least, a casual game has arrived that falls into adventure-game territory).

I enjoy games still but prefer puzzles when there is a clear sense of what needs to be accomplished. I don't care much for hidden object games and I hope tried and true adventure games don't suffer due to their popularity. There are still some good games being made and I hope that will continue to be the case. I'm thoroughly enjoying Rhiannon right now. I prefer not resorting to walkthroughs, but with some games it becomes a necessity at times. MaG is a god. heh

Jenny mentioned Hidden Object Games and are they more popular than AGs?

Im not fond of seasrching the whole screen for hotspots and the last one, or sometimes two, are alwayus difficult to find and frustrating.

I have been told that they are enormously popular, and I believe that Bigfish amongst others distribute very many.

Do Boomers really like them?

harhan, we have a whole forum dedicated to casual games and HOGS are a huge hit here.

Ana

It seems to me that casual games are getting better with the interactive hidden object games while adventure games are getting worse with too much attention to graphics and technical improvements and too little to the adventure itself. City Interactive has 2 great games with 2 more in the works so they have the right idea about the adventure genre even if they can't please everyone!

Do you think the author has a point?

With the global financial crisis, it sure would be nice to see more upcoming adventures to be released in the next few months by the commercial publishers than we are currently seeing here (scroll down to look at February, etc). I think everybody's being careful with their money -- gamers are being careful, and publishers are as well.

I don't think casual games are a threat to the health of adventures -- personally I think that more casual gamers will start playing adventures than the other way around, because there are so many more casual gamers currently out there than there are adventure gamers.

The Wii and Nintendo DS ARE a cause for concern. It used to be that, if you checked on Amazon, nearly all of Dreamcatcher's best-selling games were adventures for the PC. In the past few months, nearly all their best-selling games have been games for the Wii. Every game they've released in both Wii and PC form is selling better on the Wii than on the PC. If you were a publisher in difficult times, what would you do?


Do you find the puzzles in most current adventure games to be unsatisfying? No, I'm usually happy with them, but I'm not a puzzle genius and I game for the whole experience, of which puzzling is just a part. I find that exploring a new world (for me) is much more rewarding than looking at a single screen as I match tiles or look for hidden objects -- I don't usually need a "reward" more intense than exploration and finding out more about the story. Well, until I get hopelessly stuck in the new environment, anyway.

Do you just reach for a walkthrough so you won't have to bother solving them? It depends on the game and the circumstances.

Do you find that more often than not, they are "too easy" or "too hard" or just "not your kind of puzzle" and not worth your time? I seldom find a puzzle that I think is too easy. Occasionally I find one that seems too similar to one in a previous game, but originality (after playing hundreds of adventure games) can't always be expected. I'm not fond of difficult timed puzzles, drawn-out mazes or stealth sequences, but other than that I'm usually a pretty happy puzzle camper.

Do you find yourself getting more enjoyment out of hidden object games than you do out of playing adventure games? I haven't played any of them because just looking at them makes my eyes cross. I know others really enjoy them, though.

Do you get more enjoyment out of solving the puzzles in older adventure games ("older" meaning older than Syberia)? No.

What are your favorite adventure games for puzzles (not story)? Here's a few. Curse of Monkey Island, Destination: Treasure Island, Dracula: Origin, Grim Fangando, Keepsake, The Last Express, Riven, Myst III: Exile, Nancy Drew: The Phantom of Venice, Obsidian, the RHEM games, The Sacred Rings, the Sam & Max games, The Secrets of Da Vinci: The Forbidden Manuscript, Sentinel: Descendants in Time, Sherlock Holmes: Nemesis, The Egyptian Prophecy, Zork Grand Inquisitor

I know you didn't ask but... I'm coming to the conclusion that all adventure games should have a hint system to address the needs of gamers who are newbies to experts. Extremely dialog-heavy games are not a good idea because it is then so difficult to localize them for other markets/languages.

There are good amateur or hobbyist Adventure games being produced. I find playing those fun. There's a sense of experimentation which I find exciting - perhaps increased by the rawness of them.

I have tried Hidden Object games, and they're not for me.

Yes, commercial Adventure games have big challenges. The modern PC is a troublesome platform to develop for. For me the games are story and puzzles together, but others have said what I might have said there.

Just to chip in,
I think the problem with a lot of adventure games is the trend for better and better graphics at the expense of the story line. I have just completed Rhiannon, a great story line varying difficulty puzzles and always a clue as to the way forward so why did I not enjoy it. It just did not grab me because of the movement on the rendered background I could often see where I wanted to go but took a number of clicks to get there and it lost the theme for me.

Perhaps I am getting too old for all of this but I used to like text only games, I also remember CP/M operating systems.

Wii was mentioned a great machine but I don't think that adventure games convert very well I have tried a Harry Potter one but the PC game was much better.

Re Hidden object games, I don't like them but I have them on my lap top and have trouble getting it back off my wife, so everyone to their own.

I generally only play Adventure games. But recently I have tried some Hidden Object games that are reckoned to be amongst the best of that genre.
I quite liked the casual game concept since the puzzles were less demanding and the games id not take so long to finish.
But I did not like at all the hidden-objects aspect. Click click clicking all over the screen often blindly is no way my cup of tea.
Searching for hidden hotspots in Adventure games I dislike and so why should I like it in casual games? It just holds up the story of the game if there is one - and makes me go crosseyed.

Well, am I the only one here who found these articles depressing ??

Every year there seems to be another "imminent threat" to Adventure games and yet every year I manage to find some I enjoy.

As for the questions :

Do you think the author has a point?

I don't feel the contribution of smaller independent producers is given enough merit.
Granted every game they come up with isn't the best but given time and support they could very well become the best.

Do you find the puzzles in most current adventure games to be unsatisfying?

Not particularly.
Some have always been satisfying, some have always not, but isn't that down to my taste in puzzles ??

Do you just reach for a walkthrough so you won't have to bother solving them?

No. I won't reach for a walkthrough until I absolutely know I'm not going to solve a puzzle.
[And of course there are some types of puzzle I have never been able to solve and never will be able to solve.]

Do you find that more often than not, they are "too easy" or "too hard" or just "not your kind of puzzle" and not worth your time?

No.
Every puzzle in every game could fall into a different category and there will always be some of each.

Do you find yourself getting more enjoyment out of hidden object games than you do out of playing adventure games?

Definitely not.
One hiddden object game in six months would be enough for me. More than that and I would get bored.

Do you get more enjoyment out of solving the puzzles in older adventure games ("older" meaning older than Syberia)?

In a lot of older games, yes, and much older than Syberia.
But there have also been plenty of innovative puzzles in games since Syberia.
[As for the Syberia games themselves, whilst I enjoyed them both, I personally have never considered them to be absolutely fantastic or "yardsticks" in Adventure gaming.]

What are your favorite adventure games for puzzles (not story)?

Inventory based puzzles were the first I ever encountered and I still very much enjoy them.

They're just a conversation starter, Mad. I wouldn't say that I agreed with everything he says, and I wondered what others thought.


I'm not using Syberia as a "yardstick" for great puzzles. But I need some sort of definition of what constitutes a new game vs. how old is an "older game." Otherwise one person's "old games" might be from last year while another person's might be from before 1995.

I've only just now read the 3 articles and I must say I do find them depressing.
So many people recommend all sorts of suggestions for making the Adventure genre better. For example improving graphics, making more innovative games, 3D engines, and so on.
But right or wrong many forget that developing games is not only an art form, and a wonderful one at that, but also a business that has to make a profit or at least cover costs in order to survive.
This has never been easy and due the present world financial problems is even more difficult now,

I hear what you are saying Jenny .... But in essence my answers do remain the same

Do you think the author has a point?
Absoluteley. I've recently discovered casual games, oddly enough via a review of Return to Ravenhurst at AG. I've played 3 casual games in 2 weeks, and I find myself gravitating more to them than my Adventures (like Marian).
Do you find the puzzles in most current adventure games to be unsatisfying?
Yes. I started playing adventures for the puzzles. I like having something for my mind to work on. The story has always been secondary for me. With recent adventures, I seem to be plodding through them, waiting until the next puzzle comes up.
Do you just reach for a walkthrough so you won't have to bother solving them?
I use more WTs now than before, but NOT for the puzzle solves. I use them to get the tedious back and forthing away so I can get to the puzzle.
Do you find that more often than not, they are "too easy" or "too hard" or just "not your kind of puzzle" and not worth your time?
Yes. I've never been fond of dialogue and inventory puzzles, and these seem to be the trend right now.
Do you find yourself getting more enjoyment out of hidden object games than you do out of playing adventure games?
Yes. I can see myself playing less adventures if more casual games like Return to Ravenhurst come out.
Do you get more enjoyment out of solving the puzzles in older adventure games ("older" meaning older than Syberia)?
Having recently replayed Black Dahlia and Zork Nemesis, I have to say yes. I just finished Aura Sacred Rings (a supposed puzzle game), and I found that it was unsatisfying compared to, lets say Sentinel Descendents in Time
What are your favorite adventure games for puzzles (not story)?
Riven, Myst, Myst Exile, Rhem 1 and 2, Obsidian, Black Dahlia, Zork Nemesis,Shivers 1 and 2, and Riddle of the Sphinx. Also the Chemicus/Bioscopia/Physicus games, Safecrakers, Cassandra Galleries and the Puzz 3D games.

I think that Return to Ravenhearst is reputed to be the best Casual game to date and it certainly had a lot of Adventurism in it. The sort of gameplay and puzzles were certainly good.
But for me the repetitive hidden objects interludes were a pain in the neck. Dozens of useless objects, some of them very small and indistinct, crammed into the monitor screen over and over again.
I can't remember but I think you had to find a dozen each time. The click-fest necessary was not only a bore and waste of time and effort and broke up the continuity, but also gave me an eyeache and headache.
In several cases I was reduced at the end into clicking over the whole area of the screen pixel by pixel untilm I stumbled by chance on the the last 1 or 2 hidden objects. I found that both boring and frustrating and no fun whatsoever.
Extreme pixel hunting where it occurs in some Adventure games is the worst aspect of them for me and i think many others. To have to do it time after time after time in Return to Ravenhearst was very offputting.

harhan, if you do not care for HOG's that is fine, but they are not clickfest games, in fact in most you get punished for that. The point is to look for the object.Return to Ravenhearst was not a pixel hunt, in fact the items were cleverly placed and not at all obscure if you paid attention.

Return to Ravenhearst is not an adventure game, therefore it should not be expected to play like one, it was designed for those who enjoy HOG games with a bit of challenging inventory management to move along. If that is not your cup of tea, that is great but it isn't fair to put the game down because of it. THe game did everything it was designed to do and was a masterpiece of it's genre.

Ana

Hello, GBers. Long time no talk to, but since I wrote the articles in question, I wanted to chip in with a few points.

It's funny, I saw this thread in passing and didn't even think to read it until someone mentioned to me that these articles were cited. My surprise came from the thread title, because I didn't at any point indicate that adventure puzzles have gone downhill or gotten worse in any way. So just to clarify, I simply noted that they're trending towards being easier and more accessible than the puzzles of old. And it's not always the puzzles themselves that are easier but the games overall, as more and more games opt for standalone mini-games over integrated puzzles, built-in hint systems, hotspot highlighters, etc. Those simply weren't there before, at least to nearly the same extent. There always have been and always will be easier and harder games, but it seems clear that the balance has shifted.

It's not an issue of being satisfying, though. Adventure game puzzle have always been high-demand/low reward. By that I mean you can spend a lot of time and effort making very little progress. That's just their nature, the thing that most of us both love and get frustrated by at various times. So if anything, I think developers are trying to make them more satisfying to more people by making them more accessible. My "more satisfying", I mean "lower demand, higher reward". Better? Worse? I didn't even broach that topic. Perhaps Jenny100 was simply adding a new topic to the discussion, but I didn't want to leave the wrong impression about what I'd actually said.

And Mad, I agree with you, it is depressing, as the articles noted a few times. It's depressing talking to developers and publishers regularly who can't get their games localized or on store shelves (I'm sure MaG, Becky and others can attest to that also). It's depressing to see DS ports of old games take priority over new games waiting for release. It's depressing to see people say that when they want their puzzle or relaxed-game fixes, they prefer casual games over adventures now. It's depressing to see North American publisher mainstays being bought out and apparently backing away from the genre. But being depressing doesn't make it untrue, or make the issues go away. I disagree with you that there's always something threatening the genre. In fact, it's because we're coming off quite a few years of relative growth and prosperity and optimism that we've become a bit blinded to new concerns. But to me, I believe you can't properly overcome an obstacle if you don't recognize it, so that was the main purpose of the articles. I also said there's always reason for hope, and AG will continue to try as hard as GB at promoting the genre any way we can.

Hi Singer

Nice to see you visiting .... With or without your lampshade hat !!

I am a long time supporter of Adventure games and will continue to be so - and will especially support new developers - but I am not blind to the fact that there are still difficult (and not so difficult !!) times for the genre.

However, the cry "Adventure is dying or is even already dead" is wearing pretty thin as far as I'm concerned, it's been spouted for so many years now .... so I confess I DO purposely tend to ignore it

And I can truthfully say I have NEVER found myself without an Adventure to play since I very first started playing **** years ago !!

Cheers.

Mad

Hi Singer -- thanks for stopping by.

The halo is still bright, I see.

D'oh! People here have disturbingly long memories.

Believe me, I'm one of the loudest opponents of the tired old "adventures are dead" mantra. Because of that, I assumed people would know I was being facetious in using it myself, but in hindsight, it seems that wasn't quite obvious enough. Whoops! Definitely not worth it just for an obscure Roberta Flack reference.

Incidentally, my next blog is going to be a "reasons for hope" article. Kinda s*cks that it'll be outnumbered by the downers three to one, but it's always nice to finish on a high note. You folks just beat me to it.

(And Becky, the halo's as bright as ever. Perhaps that's an important qualifier. )

Bright as ever!